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Thread: Divorce and Baptist Pastors

  1. #1

    Divorce and Baptist Pastors

    Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    The subordinate clause "except . . " MUST be applied to all parts of the verse.

    This allows a person whose spouse was involved in sexual sin and they were divorced to get remarried without stigma. Jesus allowed it. Paul allowed it.

    DIVORCE, n. [L. See Divert.]

    1. A legal dissolution of the bonds of matrimony, or the separation of husband and wife by a judicial sentence. This is properly called a divorce, and called technically, divorce a vinculo matrimonii.

    Questions for Baptist Pastors:

    1. When Jesus gave a judicial grounds for divorce (fornication), why do some assume the innocent party is guilty of adultery if they remarry?

    2. If you pastor a church, would you perform the marriage ceremony of a member who is divorced for the cause of fornication?

    3. As a pastor would you welcome a divorced couple into your fellowship?

    Questions for ministers in the Church of Christ

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    1. Did Jesus say that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?

    2. Did Jesus say "he that believeth not shall be damned?"

    3. As ministers of the Church of Christ, do you damn everyone to hell that does not believe and is not baptized by you?

    Question for those on this forum:

    What is the difference in the logic used by Baptist preachers and ministers of the Church of Christ?

    I'll spell it out for you. Not only did the Lord allow for fornication as a grounds for divorce and remarriage, but the apostle Paul gave further revelation to the Christian church that wasn't covered by our Lord during his earthly ministry.

    In Romans 7:1-3 the apostle to the Gentiles lays out the fact that death is a grounds for remarriage.

    In 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 Paul agrees exactly with what the Lord taught.

    1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
    1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

    In 1 Corinthians 7:12 Paul says: "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:"

    The apostle is saying that he is going to cover things not taught by the Lord during his earthly ministry. "Paul is claiming, not disclaiming, divine authority for his teaching. In fact, he is even boldly superseding a command given by God through Ezra to the Jews. After returning from their captivity in Babylon, the Jews had taken wives from the unbelieving people of the land, and God told them: “Separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange [i.e., foreign] wives” (Ezra 10:11). In the Christian context, however, a Christian is commanded not to divorce a non-Christian spouse, as long as the latter is willing to remain in the marriage." - Henry Morris

    If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

    Paul goes from dealing with what the Lord rebuked the Pharisees for doing, which was allowing divorce for any reason (the hardness of their hearts), to giving the Corinthians guidelines for Christians that were deserted by an unbelieving spouse. Jesus plainly was dealing with the guilty party while Paul is dealing with the party that was wronged.

    In verse 12 Paul is clearly talking about husband and wife. He explains to the Corinthians in verse 15 that "if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases:"

    Those who say he is talking about a betrothal period are blatently dishonest or blinded by their own prejudices. I can read plain English and it is obvious Paul does not get into that until verse 25.

    1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

    If the apostle Paul was teaching false doctrine in these verses, the Holy Spirit would have told us. When Peter got caught up in heresy, the apostle Paul withstood him to his face to prevent error from coming into the church (Galations 2).

    What amazes me is I know Baptist preachers that will stand behind a pulpit (upholding their standards)and declare that they will never marry anyone (even the innocent party ) that has been divorced, yet will tell them that if they let someone else perform the ceremony, they are welcome with open arms into the church fellowship!

    They don't have enough Christian grace to be honest with those who have gone through such hurt. If they really believe the ones hurting from a divorce (a scriptural one) are committing adultery (which most Baptist pastors I know assume) why not be consistent and tell them that until they separate from their current spouse and return to the fornicating partner (who could have AIDS), the church will have no fellowship with them? By the way, I have been married to the same woman for the past 25 years and have no personal agenda.

    It is no exaggeration that divorce has been made into the unpardonable sin in Baptist churches.

  2. #2
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    Excuse me, but why is such a question directed at only the baptist pastors? I know of many in many denominations and non-denominations who have divorced for the wrong reasons.
    Let's not get into the denominational bashing here. There is plenty to be said of all of us. We all have faults and flaws, and if we were to sit and point out each of our flaws, there would be even less unity than there already is. WE don't need divisiveness. If you want to point out a fatal flaw in a teaching that has been found in "the church" , go ahead, but don't get on the denomational beating bus.
    I have left many churches for that very reason, and each of them have been different, one was pentecostal, another, non-denominational, another, baptist, and still another, charismatic. I've attended many different churches, and in general, they all teach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that's that. Each has their own focus which is in a different place, but they all believe very much the same.
    As the bible says, each servant will answer to his Master, we all belong to the same One.

    Jesus said something about this sort of thing to me years ago, because I was doing what you are doing...
    He said, "who are you to judge my servants? They are my servants too, and they will answer to me just as you will. You worry about how YOU serve me, and don't judge them, My will is still getting done."
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Excuse me, but why is such a question directed at only the baptist pastors? I know of many in many denominations and non-denominations who have divorced for the wrong reasons.
    Let's not get into the denominational bashing here. There is plenty to be said of all of us. We all have faults and flaws, and if we were to sit and point out each of our flaws, there would be even less unity than there already is. WE don't need divisiveness. If you want to point out a fatal flaw in a teaching that has been found in "the church" , go ahead, but don't get on the denomational beating bus.
    I have left many churches for that very reason, and each of them have been different, one was pentecostal, another, non-denominational, another, baptist, and still another, charismatic. I've attended many different churches, and in general, they all teach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that's that. Each has their own focus which is in a different place, but they all believe very much the same.
    As the bible says, each servant will answer to his Master, we all belong to the same One.

    Jesus said something about this sort of thing to me years ago, because I was doing what you are doing...
    He said, "who are you to judge my servants? They are my servants too, and they will answer to me just as you will. You worry about how YOU serve me, and don't judge them, My will is still getting done."
    I didn't mean to offend you, but that is the denomination I grew up in and am still a member of. I realize it crosses all denominations but was pointing out what I know is true from personal experience. I still hold to strong Baptist beliefs and know that there are exceptions to most any rule. Regards.

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    Unstandable, but next time maybe you should be careful not to address such things in such a divisive manner.
    As I said, it's one thing when you wish to discuss a "doctrinal" issue, but this is not something I have found being 'taught as doctrine' in the baptist church.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    I am not a pastor, but I am Baptist. Our preacher does do marriage ceremonies for people who have been divorced for that reason. And we have several members in our church fellowship who are divorced for that reason as well as others. Not quite sure what you are getting at here...

    I don't know anything about the Church of Christ questions you asked.


    Quote Originally Posted by ConqueredbyLove View Post
    Even sheep fall down sometimes...But Jesus picks them up as they can't pick up themselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by premio53 View Post
    Questions for ministers in the Church of Christ

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    1. Did Jesus say that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?

    2. Did Jesus say "he that believeth not shall be damned?"

    3. As ministers of the Church of Christ, do you damn everyone to hell that does not believe and is not baptized by you?
    I will try and answer your questions here Yes Christ made that statement in Mark 16:16 So if you believe you are to be baptized, if you didn't believe why would you even bother...? Some passages to read is Acts 16:28-35, 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 8:26-ff, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16, etc...

    I do not damn anyone to hell thats not my place for I am not God. However I do worry about those who don't follow what the scripture teaches such as what you mentioned about divorce above, those who can read that this or that should be done ignore it I worry about them I don't condemn them but I am afraid they will end up like those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23 They have done lawlessness or iniquity because they allowed this or that to go on and didn't follow the word of God... Such as allowing homosexuals in the church, women elders and deacons, marriage and remarriage for any reason, etc... I read in the paper the other day about a church opening in a strip club... I mean come on...

    So many churches today do 2nd Tim 4:3 to a tee they get teachers / preachers that will tell them what they want to hear. They would much rather be told yeah you can do this or that and its ok you'll still go to heaven then go to a place the tells you its sin... thats what I worry about, so yes the Bible teaches Baptism so therefore I teach it, there are those who say you don't have to do anything, just believe and sit at home and your ok because you believe... well i read in the Bible that we are to be doers of the word in James 1, we are to worship, pray, not forsake going to church Heb 10:25 etc... so I worry about their souls condition but I don't place judgment and state you're going to hell because...

    As for the person who performs the baptism shouldn't matter, its to how its done and your reasons for doing it... for example me and my wife used to live in another town and we went to church there and I married her and she hadn't obeyed so she decided to obey after studying with me and going to church with me... then we moved away when we got ready to move we found out the person who baptized her had, had an affair so I mentioned it to the elders and basically, how are we supposed to know if someone is in sin, what matters is she obeyed and she did what she was supposed because of what he did that wouldn't count against her...

    I think if its done the wrong way it needs to be done again, or if it was for the wrong reasons it needs to be done again... if it was done to say make you a member of a church then it wasn't done for forgiveness of sins or to put on Christ so you would want to do it again, if you did it just to please your family or to make your spouses family happy then you'd need to redo it again. I know a guy who I thought had been a Christian for years obey and want to be baptized and he told us he did it to gain approve from his wifes parents to marry her... so we did it again... also as we can see in Romans 6 its a burial and we need to be completely covered so I think its you just had a dab of water tossed at your or a cup of water poured over you it needs done again...

    I just try to do everything as the Bible teaches via example, command and necessary inference. Like I said before I don't say anyone is going to hell because however I do worry that since they ignore things as you mentioned such as allowing people to remarry when they shouldn't or what have you that they are in danger and be like those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23 If anyone does say they are going to hell because of this or that they are making a judgment call thats God's alone... However I do encourage people to study the Bible and look at what the Bible teaches compared to what they are doing or believe... hope that helps if you have any questions feel free to ask me here or pm me.
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    I will try and answer your questions here Yes Christ made that statement in Mark 16:16 So if you believe you are to be baptized, if you didn't believe why would you even bother...? Some passages to read is Acts 16:28-35, 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 8:26-ff, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 22:16, etc...

    I do not damn anyone to hell thats not my place for I am not God. However I do worry about those who don't follow what the scripture teaches such as what you mentioned about divorce above, those who can read that this or that should be done ignore it I worry about them I don't condemn them but I am afraid they will end up like those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23 They have done lawlessness or iniquity because they allowed this or that to go on and didn't follow the word of God... Such as allowing homosexuals in the church, women elders and deacons, marriage and remarriage for any reason, etc... I read in the paper the other day about a church opening in a strip club... I mean come on...

    So many churches today do 2nd Tim 4:3 to a tee they get teachers / preachers that will tell them what they want to hear. They would much rather be told yeah you can do this or that and its ok you'll still go to heaven then go to a place the tells you its sin... thats what I worry about, so yes the Bible teaches Baptism so therefore I teach it, there are those who say you don't have to do anything, just believe and sit at home and your ok because you believe... well i read in the Bible that we are to be doers of the word in James 1, we are to worship, pray, not forsake going to church Heb 10:25 etc... so I worry about their souls condition but I don't place judgment and state you're going to hell because...

    As for the person who performs the baptism shouldn't matter, its to how its done and your reasons for doing it... for example me and my wife used to live in another town and we went to church there and I married her and she hadn't obeyed so she decided to obey after studying with me and going to church with me... then we moved away when we got ready to move we found out the person who baptized her had, had an affair so I mentioned it to the elders and basically, how are we supposed to know if someone is in sin, what matters is she obeyed and she did what she was supposed because of what he did that wouldn't count against her...

    I think if its done the wrong way it needs to be done again, or if it was for the wrong reasons it needs to be done again... if it was done to say make you a member of a church then it wasn't done for forgiveness of sins or to put on Christ so you would want to do it again, if you did it just to please your family or to make your spouses family happy then you'd need to redo it again. I know a guy who I thought had been a Christian for years obey and want to be baptized and he told us he did it to gain approve from his wifes parents to marry her... so we did it again... also as we can see in Romans 6 its a burial and we need to be completely covered so I think its you just had a dab of water tossed at your or a cup of water poured over you it needs done again...

    I just try to do everything as the Bible teaches via example, command and necessary inference. Like I said before I don't say anyone is going to hell because however I do worry that since they ignore things as you mentioned such as allowing people to remarry when they shouldn't or what have you that they are in danger and be like those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23 If anyone does say they are going to hell because of this or that they are making a judgment call thats God's alone... However I do encourage people to study the Bible and look at what the Bible teaches compared to what they are doing or believe... hope that helps if you have any questions feel free to ask me here or pm me.
    It seems from your post that you are affiliated with the Church of Christ. If so, would you give your take on whether baptism is part of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation?

    My point in the post was to point out parallel passages that people use as proof texts to prove some doctrine or church tradition. Do you agree that Jesus gave the right to remarry in the context?

    Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    Is it not clear that the flip side is if he puts away his wife for the cause of fornication and marries another, he has not committed adultery? Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by premio53 View Post
    It seems from your post that you are affiliated with the Church of Christ. If so, would you give your take on whether baptism is part of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation?

    My point in the post was to point out parallel passages that people use as proof texts to prove some doctrine or church tradition. Do you agree that Jesus gave the right to remarry in the context?

    Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    Is it not clear that the flip side is if he puts away his wife for the cause of fornication and marries another, he has not committed adultery? Regards.
    I do agree with most what you posted here. Initially I was unsure where you were going with the baptism passage, until I saw you were drawing out a parralel, albeit not very clearly. (it could use a little editting and rewording).

    However, the biggest problem I see regarding divorce and remarriage is the ditch on the other side of the road--the abundant divorce and remarriage for any cause that is condoned by the mainstream church.

    I know many of my brethren are very harsh on the teaching. I know one brother who holds that no remarriage for any cause can ever be just. But I would rather side with him than with the brethren who allow any divorce and any remarriage, even though I read the verses you quoted and see clearly that Jesus did not intend such.

    So: I agree with you that Jesus intended that if you divorced a person who had committed adultery you could remarry, and I agree that Paul said an abandoned spouse could remarry.

    But I think there's even larger problems regarding divorce infiltrating the church.
    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

  9. #9
    Christ compares the law and the prophets with the era of the kingdom of God. Since Christ tells us that if we continue to adhere to the law, allowing divorce for adultery, then we do away with grace. We cannot hold to both the law and grace. The law is binding, but grace (in Christ) gives us freedom from the restrictions of the law. Grace teaches us that marriage is as it was originally given, for life. When we live by grace, then we must accept there is not to be divorce for those professing to be in Christ. We must view the Mosaic Law allowing for divorce as having been fulfilled in Christ. We are no longer bound to the law, but are under grace.

    Mark makes it very clear that the one divorcing according to the Mosaic Law is still bound by the Law. Mark gives no exception clause, and the so-called exception clause in Matthew is not saying the one who divorces is free to re-marry. It is saying that adultery was to have been the only cause for divorce, but that does not free the divorced person to marry again.

    Mr 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
    Mr 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

    Matthew cannot be contradicting what Mark has said, so how are we to understand this apparent exception clause in Matthew?

    Christ is not saying that they could divorce for adultery, but that adultery was to have been the only cause for divorce in the Law of Moses. They used the wording of the Law (uncleanness) to divorce for any cause. But, then Christ says that if they divorce, they are still bound by the law because He says if they re-marry after divorce they commit adultery. Would Christ give us freedom from the law, and then tell us we are still bound by the law? His disciples understood this very well, and why they say to Him, if that is the case, then it is better never to marry. To make sure they understand well that the Law permitting divorce is still binding, and they are not permitted to marry again, Christ gives the example of eunuchs.

    Christ is saying that you can choose to keep the Law, and divorce for adultery, but if you re-marry you MUST become as the eunuchs, because if you marry again while your first spouse still lives then you are still bound by the Law and committing adultery.

    Mt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
    Mt 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
    Mt 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
    Mt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

    Understanding that the Law permitting divorce is still binding, Christ shows us the better way, the way of grace. The way Christ is showing us is through forgiveness.

    Under the Law of Moses divorce was made an easy matter. This is not so in the Kingdom era. There was only one clause for divorce then, which was adultery. Now, under grace (in Christ) only death can separate those whom the Lord has made one flesh (1Co. 7:39). We are not living under the Law of Sinai, but under the far more beneficent and restrictive Law of grace (Ro. 5:21). The Law has not been done away, but fulfilled in Christ.
    Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    When we look at the exception clause made under the Law, we must view it in light of the Law given at Sinai. Christ contrasts the Law of Sinai, with the Law under grace:

    Mt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Mt 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    Mt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    The Law through grace comes with much greater restriction, not only the one who commits murder is guilty before God, but even he who is angry without cause. Not only is adultery cause for Judgment, but also looking on a woman with lust. It is not possible for man to fulfill all the requirements of the Law. If it were then Christ would not have had to fulfill the Law for us.

    If Christ had not fulfilled the requirements of the Law, then how could we find confidence being in covenant with God? Under the Old Covenant God put away (divorced) the nation for her spiritual adultery. If Christ has not fulfilled the Law making divorce for adultery still permissible then we could suffer the same fate as the nation of Old. We commit spiritual adultery every day, and so Christ would be telling us that we too are subject to divorce just as the nation. There could be no peace knowing that though we are chosen by Christ, we too in committing spiritual adultery are subject to the same fate. But Christ has given us a sure promise, a promise not dependent upon our obedience whereby He says: “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, NOR FORSAKE THEE.” (Heb. 13:4,5)

    RW

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    1) As a deacon in a baptist church, Jesus did give an excusable reason of divorce. But with keeping with the full Gospel Jesus taught no breaking verses up to suit a point of view. Christ taught Peter on forgiveness, that if anyone sins against you forgive 70 times 7. Jesus taught forgiveness so that we could use it for all. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loves His church. For humans to forgive a spouse that had relations outside the marriage would take an extreme amount of love for that person. Yet their are those married that have went through this and saved their marriage. What a testamony they have as to the love shared between husband and wife. 1A) Who would you consider an innocent party in a divorce? What was one party not providing the one who went outside the marriage? The way I and my wife view our marriage is it takes the both of us and the Grace of God and our love for Him to keep our family together.
    2) No I would not. Some will if so led to do so.
    3) You better believe that we would accept a divorced couple into our fellowship. This is not the unpardonable sin anymore than an alcoholic, liar.
    The greatest problem with most congregations in all denominations and we all have those that think they have no sin and are better than all. For man to humble himself is difficult yet those that can and welcome all as Jesus did are great for a church.

  11. #11
    Divorce means you no longer have a husband or wife. Some accuse Jesus of not meaning what he said. To add to that problem they question apostolic authority when it comes to Paul who clearly gives further revelation to the church not found in the gospels.

    The funny thing is, not only do most Baptist pastors question the commands of the apostle Paul, they even deny that Jesus gave an authoritative judgment concerning fornication. If a pastor who has been scripturally divorced (thus no longer has a wife) and remarries does he have two wives?

    I like what Dr. Henry Morris said concerning this in 1 Corinthians 7:15.

    7:15 bondage in such cases. If the unbelieving husband or wife chooses to leave the relationship, however, there remains nothing else the believer can do. The Christian spouse should remain unmarried (I Corinthians 7:11) as long as there is any possibility of reconciliation. Otherwise he or she “is not under bondage”—that is, no longer bound by the law to remain with the other spouse. The situation seems analogous to that in which one partner dies. “If the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband?so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man” (Romans 7:2-3). Once the ex-husband or ex-wife marries another, then the previous marriage relation is as permanently severed as if it had been severed by death, with no further possibility of reconciliation. When that becomes the case, it seems plain that there is no further “bondage” of any sort, so that the believer is free to remarry—but, of course, only “in the Lord” (I Corinthians 7:39).

    From the familiar John 4 passage of the woman at the well -
    Quote:

    Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.

    The woman answered and said, I have no husband.

    Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: for thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
    Pretty definitive language. NO husband presently (just shacking up). HAD five husbands previously.

    She did not HAVE 6 (still living) husbands. She had none. A divorce is a 100% separation, erasing the marriage bond. It is irritating to see pastors talk about a person who is divorced and remarried as having 2 or more wives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by premio53 View Post
    It seems from your post that you are affiliated with the Church of Christ. If so, would you give your take on whether baptism is part of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation?

    My point in the post was to point out parallel passages that people use as proof texts to prove some doctrine or church tradition. Do you agree that Jesus gave the right to remarry in the context?

    Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

    Is it not clear that the flip side is if he puts away his wife for the cause of fornication and marries another, he has not committed adultery? Regards.

    As far as marriage and remarriage goes I do think in Matt 19 Christ does give that person the right to remarry if their spouse commits adultery. However I do believe that its encouraged to try and work it out but if their is no fixing it then that person does have the right to remarry within the context of Matt 19.

    As for Baptism I think its a vital part of the plan of salvation. Why well because we learn via three ways in the Bible, one is direction command such as John 13:34 we are commanded to love one another. We learn via example Christ set for the example of the Lords Supper well how do we know that we can't have coke and a burger for the Lords Supper well because in every reference to it we see them partake of breaking of bread and the fruit of the vine... so we follow that example. And Necessary Inference which is when something is necessarily inferred such as in Matt 8:14 we read that Peter had a mother-in-law, that infers that Peter was married no doubt about it and I don't know of any passages that mentions Peter having a wife or anything of a sort but this one mentioning he had a mother-in-law so with this verse alone we can see Peter was married.

    Well throughout the entire NT everyone that was under NT order was baptized for forgiveness of sins and as part of the plan of salvation. I don't know of any command, example, or where its inferred that no one was baptized. However I do see examples of it and commands of it and where its inferred, and there are passages that explain that its for washing away our sins, and that it saves us, not that its baptism itself that saves us but more so the fact that we are Obeying God.

    Notice 1st Peter 3:20-21 which states "20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

    We can tell thats talking about water baptism because it gives the example of eight souls being saved via water. The like unto figure even baptism doth now also save us. Its a parallel in that water saved Noah and his family and water is now part of what saves us. However as mentioned its not washing away dirt of filth but its just in the answer of a good conscience toward God.

    I think an excellent example of how people think of baptism today is what we see in 2nd Kings 5:1-14 which states

    " 1Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honourable, because by him the LORD had given deliverance unto Syria: he was also a mighty man in valour, but he was a leper. 2And the Syrians had gone out by companies, and had brought away captive out of the land of Israel a little maid; and she waited on Naaman's wife. 3And she said unto her mistress, Would God my lord were with the prophet that is in Samaria! for he would recover him of his leprosy. 4And one went in, and told his lord, saying, Thus and thus said the maid that is of the land of Israel. 5And the king of Syria said, Go to, go, and I will send a letter unto the king of Israel. And he departed, and took with him ten talents of silver, and six thousand pieces of gold, and ten changes of raiment. 6And he brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, Now when this letter is come unto thee, behold, I have therewith sent Naaman my servant to thee, that thou mayest recover him of his leprosy. 7And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me. 8And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.
    9So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. 10And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? 14Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean."



    We can see clearly in verse 10 and 11 that Naaman was wroth because he was like shouldn't some great thing have happened and left mad however in 13-14 we can see his servant was like why not do it it something so simple.

    So many people today want to hear God talk to them or some great feeling to let them know they are saved and think ahhh baptism is just getting wet... but its just like with Naaman don't question God just do what he says even though it may sound silly to us does mean we should ignore the wisdom of God.

    Think of those in the wilderness who was bitten by vipers and was told to look at the brass snake and they wouldn't die in Numbers 21 if we were told to do that today most people would be like your nuts that doesn't make sense... just as they do with baptism.

    Look at 1st Cor 1:21 it states "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Look here it notes preaching as being foolishness its no different than Baptism its just showing God that you have faith in what he says to do so you do it without question...

    I can go into more detail if you would like but I think I've made my point if you would like me to go into more detail just ask and I would be happy to. Sorry for the long delay in answering I mowed the yard yesterday afternoon and went to bed, anyway later.
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    As far as marriage and remarriage goes I do think in Matt 19 Christ does give that person the right to remarry if their spouse commits adultery. However I do believe that its encouraged to try and work it out but if their is no fixing it then that person does have the right to remarry within the context of Matt 19.

    As for Baptism I think its a vital part of the plan of salvation. Why well because we learn via three ways in the Bible, one is direction command such as John 13:34 we are commanded to love one another. We learn via example Christ set for the example of the Lords Supper well how do we know that we can't have coke and a burger for the Lords Supper well because in every reference to it we see them partake of breaking of bread and the fruit of the vine... so we follow that example. And Necessary Inference which is when something is necessarily inferred such as in Matt 8:14 we read that Peter had a mother-in-law, that infers that Peter was married no doubt about it and I don't know of any passages that mentions Peter having a wife or anything of a sort but this one mentioning he had a mother-in-law so with this verse alone we can see Peter was married.

    Well throughout the entire NT everyone that was under NT order was baptized for forgiveness of sins and as part of the plan of salvation. I don't know of any command, example, or where its inferred that no one was baptized. However I do see examples of it and commands of it and where its inferred, and there are passages that explain that its for washing away our sins, and that it saves us, not that its baptism itself that saves us but more so the fact that we are Obeying God.

    Notice 1st Peter 3:20-21 which states "20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

    We can tell thats talking about water baptism because it gives the example of eight souls being saved via water. The like unto figure even baptism doth now also save us. Its a parallel in that water saved Noah and his family and water is now part of what saves us. However as mentioned its not washing away dirt of filth but its just in the answer of a good conscience toward God.

    I think an excellent example of how people think of baptism today is what we see in 2nd Kings 5:1-14 which states

    " 1Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honourable, because by him the LORD had given deliverance unto Syria: he was also a mighty man in valour, but he was a leper. 2And the Syrians had gone out by companies, and had brought away captive out of the land of Israel a little maid; and she waited on Naaman's wife. 3And she said unto her mistress, Would God my lord were with the prophet that is in Samaria! for he would recover him of his leprosy. 4And one went in, and told his lord, saying, Thus and thus said the maid that is of the land of Israel. 5And the king of Syria said, Go to, go, and I will send a letter unto the king of Israel. And he departed, and took with him ten talents of silver, and six thousand pieces of gold, and ten changes of raiment. 6And he brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, Now when this letter is come unto thee, behold, I have therewith sent Naaman my servant to thee, that thou mayest recover him of his leprosy. 7And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me. 8And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.
    9So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. 10And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? 14Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean."



    We can see clearly in verse 10 and 11 that Naaman was wroth because he was like shouldn't some great thing have happened and left mad however in 13-14 we can see his servant was like why not do it it something so simple.

    So many people today want to hear God talk to them or some great feeling to let them know they are saved and think ahhh baptism is just getting wet... but its just like with Naaman don't question God just do what he says even though it may sound silly to us does mean we should ignore the wisdom of God.

    Think of those in the wilderness who was bitten by vipers and was told to look at the brass snake and they wouldn't die in Numbers 21 if we were told to do that today most people would be like your nuts that doesn't make sense... just as they do with baptism.

    Look at 1st Cor 1:21 it states "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Look here it notes preaching as being foolishness its no different than Baptism its just showing God that you have faith in what he says to do so you do it without question...

    I can go into more detail if you would like but I think I've made my point if you would like me to go into more detail just ask and I would be happy to. Sorry for the long delay in answering I mowed the yard yesterday afternoon and went to bed, anyway later.
    It might be best to start another thread to keep this one on target. When I get the time I'll try to respond. Regards.

  14. #14
    Righton Guest
    "Questions for ministers in the Church of Christ

    Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    1. Did Jesus say that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved?

    2. Did Jesus say "he that believeth not shall be damned?"

    3. As ministers of the Church of Christ, do you damn everyone to hell that does not believe and is not baptized by you?"

    1. Yes.

    2. Yes. I think it's fair to say those who do not believe will also not be baptized. I don't know how Baptists get around the fact that scripture says baptism is necessary for salvation, nor do I understand why they like to argue the point.

    3. I am not a minister, just grew up in the COC. But basically, COC believers believe they shall be the only ones in Heaven. At least that's the way I remember it.

    I mainly wanted to answer question #2.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillbilly dave View Post
    1) As a deacon in a baptist church, Jesus did give an excusable reason of divorce.
    When was Jesus a deacon in a baptist church? jk
    Quote Originally Posted by hillbilly dave
    Who would you consider an innocent party in a divorce? What was one party not providing the one who went outside the marriage?
    What kind of comment is that? Is this the formal view of the Baptist Church? Maybe innocent is not a perfect word here but I don't understand the sentiment behind this comment. I know of many marriages where the desire to work in a marriage, reconcile a marrieage, etc. has been present only in one party. I know of marriages where one of the parties falls into a destructive habit destroying the entire family. Also, I know of some abusive marriages where one party physically harms or mentally abuses the other. In all of these cases, are you implying (or rather, is the Baptist Church implying) that one should feel responsible for their spouse's actions?

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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