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Thread: Born in Zion

  1. #1
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    Born in Zion

    In John 3 we see Nicodemus visiting secretly with Jesus who says to him..."you must be born again" (from above) (by the will of the Father). Nicodemus is puzzled; he has never heard of such a thing. Yet Jesus presses him that he should know as he is a leader in Israel and well acquainted with the word. Why doesn't Nicodemus understand the need to be born of the Spirit in order to participate in the Israel of God?

    So where is the new birth spoken of in the Scriptures?

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    Re: Born in Zion

    Psalm 87


    1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.
    2 The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
    3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
    4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philis'ti-a, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
    5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her:
    and the Highest himself shall establish her.
    6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

    7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there:
    all my springs are in thee.


  3. #3

    Re: Born in Zion

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    In John 3 we see Nicodemus visiting secretly with Jesus who says to him..."you must be born again" (from above) (by the will of the Father). Nicodemus is puzzled; he has never heard of such a thing. Yet Jesus presses him that he should know as he is a leader in Israel and well acquainted with the word. Why doesn't Nicodemus understand the need to be born of the Spirit in order to participate in the Israel of God?

    So where is the new birth spoken of in the Scriptures?
    Would it make me a prophet if I said that if I ask you if you are born again you would tell me

    Yes.

  4. #4

    Re: Born in Zion

    Those who tell me they are not born again.

    I know are telling me the Truth.

  5. #5

    Re: Born in Zion

    I have a worth while question for you.

    Will a child of God

    tell a lie.

    After they are born again.

  6. #6
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    Re: Born in Zion

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    In John 3 we see Nicodemus visiting secretly with Jesus who says to him..."you must be born again" (from above) (by the will of the Father). Nicodemus is puzzled; he has never heard of such a thing. Yet Jesus presses him that he should know as he is a leader in Israel and well acquainted with the word. Why doesn't Nicodemus understand the need to be born of the Spirit in order to participate in the Israel of God?

    So where is the new birth spoken of in the Scriptures?
    The new birth is spoke of in Job.

    Job 33:23-26 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: The he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: (Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born. Job was an old man whose flesh became fresher than a child's.) He shall pray unto god, and he will be favourable unto him, and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

    Jesus Christ is the ransom and he is the righteousness of God imputed unto man.

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    Re: Born in Zion

    From the concept of the mikvah.

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    Re: Born in Zion

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    So where is the new birth spoken of in the [O.T.] Scriptures?

    Isaiah 32:15
    "Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest. Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field. And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever."

    Ezekiel 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit"

    Psalms 51:1
    "Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."

    Ezekiel 36:25
    "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    Psalms 32:1
    "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

    Ezekiel 11:19
    "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

    Jeremiah 17:13
    "the LORD, the fountain of living waters. Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise"


  9. #9
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    Re: Born in Zion

    Psalm 87


    1 His foundation is in the holy mountains.
    If we are alive in the Spirit, then we reside on God's holy hill. As such we cannot help but be a light in the world. This is due to our abiding in a place where we are witnesses of the spiritual reality. A light on a hill cannot be hidden!

    2 The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
    Those who can see and experience Zion while still on earth are of more value to the kingdom to many righteous ones. Being a natural son of Israel is one thing....but being a son of the Israel of God is better. To the Jew first and then the nations.
    3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
    Glory is for saints of God. While the righteous are destined for life, only those who are born in Zion have a chance to live in eternal glory.

    4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philis'ti-a, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
    Converts, captives, former enemies, neighbours and men of other races...all have access to the new birth in Zion.

    5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her:
    and the Highest himself shall establish her.
    Here is another reference to the new birth being in Zion, the city of God. Those who are on God's holy hill are truly seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus!

    6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
    This is a reference to the saints who alone shall be written in the Lamb's book of life (not just the book of life) for those who will dwell in the New Jerusalem (Zion come to earth)



    7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

    Out of our hearts will flow rivers of living water.
    So it is with they who abide in Christ and seated in Zion in the Spirit.

  10. #10

    Re: Born in Zion

    Was Jesus born of Mary and also of Zion? Will we also be born of Zion?

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

    Jesus:


    Rev. 12:2,5 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child,
    Do you see anything about God here?

    Just a point concerning birth and we shall assume this is speaking of Jesus. Notice she cried, travailed and was in pain.

    Isa. 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Prophetically speaking is this also speaking of Jesus in some fashion? I believe it is. But if it is what is the difference in the two births?

    I believe it speaks of him being declared to be the Son of as the last Adam, man by the resurrection from the dead.
    He Jesus is the first born from the dead as a man being the Son of God, he was the only begotten by the Holy Spirit (God) in the womb of a woman.

    The two birth being one from the woman the other from the dead.

    Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death (birth pains of Hades) because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Read Psalms 116 It is a prophesy of Christ resurrection showing it as the faith of Christ in being resurrected comparing Ps 116:10 to 2 Cor. 4:13 and we through the gift of the Holy Spirit have that same spirit of faith of being resurrected to life as Christ had.

    His birth from the dead was not accompanied with birth pains as was his birth from Mary.

    Us:

    Isa 66:8,9 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God. (The next few verses speak of Jerusalem Above the mother of us all IMHO) 10-12 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.

    Now both: Psalms 139:15,16 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; (Christ in Hades during three days and three nights, before being firstborn from the dead) Heb. 5:9 (Speaking of his resurrection.) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation. (Back to Ps 139 :16 the church and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

  11. #11
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    Re: Born in Zion

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Was Jesus born of Mary and also of Zion? Will we also be born of Zion?

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

    Jesus:


    Rev. 12:2,5 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child,
    Do you see anything about God here?

    Just a point concerning birth and we shall assume this is speaking of Jesus. Notice she cried, travailed and was in pain.

    Isa. 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Prophetically speaking is this also speaking of Jesus in some fashion? I believe it is. But if it is what is the difference in the two births?

    I believe it speaks of him being declared to be the Son of as the last Adam, man by the resurrection from the dead.
    He Jesus is the first born from the dead as a man being the Son of God, he was the only begotten by the Holy Spirit (God) in the womb of a woman.

    The two birth being one from the woman the other from the dead.

    Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death (birth pains of Hades) because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Read Psalms 116 It is a prophesy of Christ resurrection showing it as the faith of Christ in being resurrected comparing Ps 116:10 to 2 Cor. 4:13 and we through the gift of the Holy Spirit have that same spirit of faith of being resurrected to life as Christ had.

    His birth from the dead was not accompanied with birth pains as was his birth from Mary.

    Us:

    Isa 66:8,9 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God. (The next few verses speak of Jerusalem Above the mother of us all IMHO) 10-12 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.

    Now both: Psalms 139:15,16 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; (Christ in Hades during three days and three nights, before being firstborn from the dead) Heb. 5:9 (Speaking of his resurrection.) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation. (Back to Ps 139 :16 the church and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Not sure I understand what you are getting at here!

  12. #12
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    Re: Born in Zion

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post

    Isaiah 32:15
    "Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest. Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field. And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever."

    Ezekiel 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit"

    Psalms 51:1
    "Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."

    Ezekiel 36:25
    "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    Psalms 32:1
    "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

    Ezekiel 11:19
    "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

    Jeremiah 17:13
    "the LORD, the fountain of living waters. Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise"

    The OT has references to circumcising for ourselves our own hearts. Circumcise for yourselves....change your ways! ...etc

    It came as a shock to a certain Jewish friend of mine that God HIMSELF will circumcise the hearts of men (Deut. 30:6). I quoted the verse in Hebrew and he said I was mistaken in the wording...that is until I showed him the verse. He just scatched his head. Here is where the natural must confront the eternal. Self-improvement is one thing....but a new creation in Christ while we yet live in this world...well how many can truly believe this? How many have truly seen the kingdom in the Spirit?

    There are many allusions to the new birth...but these are ususally not understood as such. It often sounds like God is helping men to help themselves. So the impact of the new creation is not felt.

    But the actual word "born" found in PS. 87 both clarifies the situation and brings another stumbling-block to both the Jews and some Christians.

    To be born again means to be born in Zion. This birth is superior to any natural birth as it is by the direct intervention of the Father. So the Israel of God is superior to natural Israel. Natural Israel is but a shadow and representation of God's greater work.

  13. #13
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    Re: Born in Zion

    "They go from strength to strength who look to God in Zion." Psalm 84:7

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