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Thread: The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit... Are they equal?

  1. #1

    Help The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit... Are they equal?

    SO we established that Jesus is God. Now my mom says that The Father has more power and more athority than Jesus and the Holy Spirit. She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist. What do yall think about that?

  2. #2
    i typo'd in the subject title. I meant Father Son and Holy Spirit

  3. #3
    Now my mom says that The Father has more power and more athority than Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
    This is true, in a manner of speaking.

    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal by nature of their existence. Each is eternal, immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent. These, by definition, are attributes only God has. Thus they are each fully God. And since God is only One God, thus God is a trinitarian being (Father, Son, Spirit) by nature.

    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not equal in role. The Father sends the Son, not the other way. The Holy Spirit anoints the Son, not the other way. The Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, not the other way. The Son became a man and died for our sins, the Father and Spirit did not. And so on. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not equal in hierarchy. Scripture is clear that all things are done according to the Father's will. The will of the Son is to do the will of the Father. The will of the Spirit is to do the will of the Father.

    By this, one could say that the Father has more "authority" than the Son and the Holy Spirit, but it does not mean that the Father is superior in nature to the Son or Spirit.

    She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist. What do yall think about that?
    This is nonsense. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. God is, by nature of his existence, a trinitarian being. To remove one- or two-thirds of God (Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit) is to make God incomplete. Without the Son and/or the Holy Spirit, God would no longer be God.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    i typo'd in the subject title. I meant Father Son and Holy Spirit
    Tiffany Faith,
    1 John 5:7 For there thre that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and the three are one.
    Thanks,
    in love of Christ,/RT.

  5. #5
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    Hi Tiffany.

    I'm going to cut and paste from the Assembly of God Tenets of Faith:

    b. Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead
    Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.


    •Luke 1:35 [KJV/NIV]
    •1 Corinthians 1:24 [KJV/NIV]
    •Matthew 11:25-27 [KJV/NIV]
    •Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
    •2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV]
    •1 John 1:3-4 [KJV/NIV])

    c. Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit
    Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.


    •John 1:18 [KJV/NIV]
    •John 15:26 [KJV/NIV]
    •John 17:11 [KJV/NIV]
    •John 17:21 [KJV/NIV]
    •Zechariah 14:9 [KJV/NIV]

    d. Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead
    The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.


    •John 5:17-30 [KJV/NIV]
    •John 5:32 [KJV/NIV]
    •John 5:37 [KJV/NIV]
    •John 8:17,18 [KJV/NIV]

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    SO we established that Jesus is God. Now my mom says that The Father has more power and more athority than Jesus and the Holy Spirit. She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist. What do yall think about that?
    They are equal in essence, equal in substance and equal in power. They are one God in three persons. They can't be separated.

    However they have different roles within the Trinity. The Son willingly submits to the Father, and the Holy Spirit submits to Son and Father (the Son sent the Holy Spirit). Notice in Scriptures that they never exalt themselves, the Father exalts the Son, the Son exalts the Father, the Holy Spirit exalts the Son.

    An employee is not less a human being than his employer. They are both human beings. But the employee plays a different role from his employer. He submits because of the difference in roles, not because he is less powerful or lacks certain abilities of a human being or is somehow a lesser human being.

    Christ was only made lower than the angels during his incarnation (Hebrews 2:9). Before his incarnation, Isaiah saw him sitted on His throne and the angels crying out "Holy, holy, holy." Nothing in the Universe was created without the Son, and it was the Son who holds the Universe together by His great power. After his ressurection He was given all power and authority over all creation. He judges the whole world, and the Father will defer all judgement to Christ at the end of the world.

    I encourage you in your study to know God in truth.

    Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    I recommend this study guide:
    http://www.amazon.com/Your-Life-Chri...9270406&sr=1-2
    Tit 3:2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    SO we established that Jesus is God. Now my mom says that The Father has more power and more athority than Jesus and the Holy Spirit. She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist. What do yall think about that?
    Jn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    Firstfruits

  8. #8
    So when we get to Heaven we wont just see one God. We will see all 3 beings the Holy Spirit, next to Jesus, next to the Father in the role of God?
    So it will look like this
    |||
    not like this
    |
    Thats what my mom believes. That God is a role kept by 3 beings. LIke how 2 people become 1 not in flesh or substance but in the role of marriage. I believe God is 1 being with 3 roles. Like How I am a mother, a wife, and a daughter but am all Tiffany. Which one is correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    SO we established that Jesus is God. Now my mom says that The Father has more power and more authority than Jesus and the Holy Spirit. She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist. What do yall think about that?
    I agree wit Markedward in part. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in nature as he has stated. The Scriptures tell us that in the end Christ will again return all authority to the Father. Scripture also tells us that while all authority has been given to Christ, the Father is not subject to Christ, but Christ to the Father.

    Where I disagree, I'm not sure that Christ is omniscient, as he said he did not know the day or the hour of his return, but only the Father knows that.

    I am not sure about the statement "Triune Being". I understand that the three are three persons, not one. I am not sure what Markedward means by his statement. Three persons, one God (Divinity or deity, not being). For lack of a better example, consider a corporation, it has President, Vice President and Chief Accounting Officer. They are all part of the one corporation yet three different individuals, they are all equal in nature, no one is more human than the other, yet they are not equal in order or attributes. For instance they are ll human, so they are equal in nature, yet they have different attributes, on may be male and another female, one may be tall and another short, etc. They also are not equal in order, the President has authority over the Vice President who likewise has authority over the Chief Accounting Officer. This is a crude example but I hope you get the picture.

    She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist.
    I haven't really thought about this but it seems logical. The Scriptures tell us that the Father alone has immortality So it seems he would live forever, even if He was alone.


    1 Timothy 6:14-16 ( KJV )
    That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    This passage must be speaking of the Father, since men can and have seen Jesus, and it says the Father alone has immortality.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    So when we get to Heaven we wont just see one God. We will see all 3 beings the Holy Spirit, next to Jesus, next to the Father in the role of God?
    So it will look like this
    |||
    not like this
    |
    Thats what my mom believes. That God is a role kept by 3 beings. LIke how 2 people become 1 not in flesh or substance but in the role of marriage. I believe God is 1 being with 3 roles. Like How I am a mother, a wife, and a daughter but am all Tiffany. Which one is correct?

    Your mother's view is closer to the correct view. If God was one being filling three roles, who raised Him from the dead? Once He was dead there would be no one to raise Him.

  11. #11
    Thats so confusing.In my other post "Jesus is God...right?" everyone said my mom's view was wrong. I believe God has three parts or persons and each person has a certain role. My mom believes they are 3 beings and that God is not a name but an office held by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think of God as time. past present future but all one time. She sees it more like the Father Son and Holy Spirit work together in the job of being God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    SO we established that Jesus is God. Now my mom says that The Father has more power and more athority than Jesus and the Holy Spirit. She even says that if Jesus or the Holy Spirit didn't exist that God would still exist. What do yall think about that?
    They are all equal in power and authority. However, they all share a bond of love, in that the Father only speaks of the Son and Spirit, the Son only speaks of the Father and the Spirit, and the Spirit only speaks of the Father and the Son. They do not speak about themselves, that is in their own communications, Jesus while on earth did speak and refer to himself sometimes. But they all reflect each other outward.

    The Father is not more powerful or in higher authority than the Son or Spirit, nor is the Son higher than the Father or Spirit, nor the Spirit higher than the Father or Son. We could get into debates about if the Son being begotten of the Father makes him subject to the Father or because the Spirit proceeds from the Father if he is subject, but orthodox theologians would agree that none is above the other or more powerful.

    As to your question about lll or l it is both. God is one being, but three persons. Without the Father, Son, and Spirit there would not be God. If any person is missing then God is not God. As to how we will see God we cannot know, no one has seen God and lived. Your example of being daughter, mother, and wife only works to so far because you are only one person with three roles, God is one role with three persons. You cannot exist as Tiffany the daughter, Tiffany the mother, and Tiffany the wife as three persons and still be just Tiffany. That would require, each of those Tiffanies to be seperate yet all linked, or bonded to each other but yet be in all places and yet in one place.

    The dyanmic of the Trinity has changed a lot since the Son became flesh and dwelled among us and since the Spirit hovered over the waters of creation. Even since the Word (the Son) burst forth from the Father in the creation of the universe the dynamic has changed.

    Let me leave you with his little story. One day St Augustine was walking down the beach, contemplating the Most Blessed Trinity. As he walked along he saw a boy with a bucket runing back and forth from the ocean, dumping the bucket of water into a hole he had made in the beach. He went up to the boy and asked him what he was doing. The boy replied he was trying to fit the ocean into the hole he had made. St Augustine said he could not do it, it was impossible. The boy said to him so is it impossible for you to understand the Most Blessed Trinity. At that the boy disappeared.

    So in other words we can think about it all we want but we will never understand it until we are fully with God and even then we may not understand it because we will not be God or part of God, but will only be with him and fully love him.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    They are all equal in power and authority. However, they all share a bond of love, in that the Father only speaks of the Son and Spirit, the Son only speaks of the Father and the Spirit, and the Spirit only speaks of the Father and the Son. They do not speak about themselves, that is in their own communications, Jesus while on earth did speak and refer to himself sometimes. But they all reflect each other outward.

    The Father is not more powerful or in higher authority than the Son or Spirit, nor is the Son higher than the Father or Spirit, nor the Spirit higher than the Father or Son. We could get into debates about if the Son being begotten of the Father makes him subject to the Father or because the Spirit proceeds from the Father if he is subject, but orthodox theologians would agree that none is above the other or more powerful.

    As to your question about lll or l it is both. God is one being, but three persons. Without the Father, Son, and Spirit there would not be God. If any person is missing then God is not God. As to how we will see God we cannot know, no one has seen God and lived. Your example of being daughter, mother, and wife only works to so far because you are only one person with three roles, God is one role with three persons. You cannot exist as Tiffany the daughter, Tiffany the mother, and Tiffany the wife as three persons and still be just Tiffany. That would require, each of those Tiffanies to be seperate yet all linked, or bonded to each other but yet be in all places and yet in one place.

    The dyanmic of the Trinity has changed a lot since the Son became flesh and dwelled among us and since the Spirit hovered over the waters of creation. Even since the Word (the Son) burst forth from the Father in the creation of the universe the dynamic has changed.

    Let me leave you with his little story. One day St Augustine was walking down the beach, contemplating the Most Blessed Trinity. As he walked along he saw a boy with a bucket runing back and forth from the ocean, dumping the bucket of water into a hole he had made in the beach. He went up to the boy and asked him what he was doing. The boy replied he was trying to fit the ocean into the hole he had made. St Augustine said he could not do it, it was impossible. The boy said to him so is it impossible for you to understand the Most Blessed Trinity. At that the boy disappeared.

    So in other words we can think about it all we want but we will never understand it until we are fully with God and even then we may not understand it because we will not be God or part of God, but will only be with him and fully love him.
    I like your answer. The trinity is just a divine mystery that we may never fully comprehend. As long as we know that Jesus Christ is fully God and accept Him as Lord and Saviour then we'll be saved. I hate to argue about the trinity because it is like trying to fit the ocean into a bucket. Confusing and impossible to explain. I guess we just have to take it at faith. and faith is my middle name lol

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    i typo'd in the subject title. I meant Father Son and Holy Spirit
    Thank goodness. I was going to say "the Godfather" was not quite equal with the other two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiffany Faith View Post
    Thats so confusing.In my other post "Jesus is God...right?" everyone said my mom's view was wrong. I believe God has three parts or persons and each person has a certain role. My mom believes they are 3 beings and that God is not a name but an office held by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think of God as time. past present future but all one time. She sees it more like the Father Son and Holy Spirit work together in the job of being God.
    Are you saying that your mom believes that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate beings who cooperate with each other? In that case there would be three Gods cooperating with each other rather than one God manifesting Himself in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Would you say that your mom sees the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three Gods?

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