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Thread: Did Jesus Pay Our Debt?

  1. #1
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    Did Jesus Pay Our Debt?

    I've often heard people say that "Jesus paid our debt". Did he?

    - What was our debt?
    -To whom did He make payment?
    -If He paid our debt, are we really forgiven?

    Matthew 18:23-27
    "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
    Was payment made to the king for this man's debt? No. The king forgave the debt.

    If I owe $10,000 to my credit card company, and my father pays the bill, is my bill forgiven, or paid off?

    If I owe $10,000 to my credit card company, and nobodt pays my bill, but the credit card company says "Don't worry about it. The bill doesn't need to be paid" - Then I'd be forgiven.
    You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

    Charles G Finney



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  2. #2
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    Our debt is that every one of us has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
    God is absolute perfection, and requires absolute perfection.
    Since none of us are absolutely perfect, we all fall short. We all sin.
    The end result of sin is death, eternal separation from God.
    In every single case, for every sin of every man woman and child on the planet, death will be required, and death will occur.
    Jesus Christ died that death in our place. He paid the price, which is death.
    Now we are faced with a choice. We can either accept the payment He made for us in our behalf, freely offered to us, or, we can pay that penalty ourselves.
    If we accept what He did in our place, then truly our 'King forgives our debt', because He paid it Himself. It gets paid either way.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahtar View Post
    Our debt is that every one of us has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
    God is absolute perfection, and requires absolute perfection.
    Since none of us are absolutely perfect, we all fall short. We all sin.
    The end result of sin is death, eternal separation from God.
    In every single case, for every sin of every man woman and child on the planet, death will be required, and death will occur.
    Jesus Christ died that death in our place. He paid the price, which is death.
    Now we are faced with a choice. We can either accept the payment He made for us in our behalf, freely offered to us, or, we can pay that penalty ourselves.
    If we accept what He did in our place, then truly our 'King forgives our debt', because He paid it Himself. It gets paid either way.
    I'm not sure what you mean what our debt is.

    What do we owe to God that Jesus "paid"?

    Is the penalty for our sin our debt?
    You were made to think. It will do you good to think; to develop your powers by study. God designed that religion should require thought, intense thought, and should thoroughly develop our powers of thought.

    Charles G Finney



    http://holyrokker.blogspot.com

  4. #4
    16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. [2] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling [3] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


    I'm not so sure about penal substitution any more?
    My King of Hearts beats your jack of clubs!

    "Both read the Bible day and night;
    but you read black where I read white."
    ~William Blake

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    "The Law actually broke itself when it killed an innocent man"
    Seth Dahl

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by holyrokker View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean what our debt is.

    What do we owe to God that Jesus "paid"?

    Is the penalty for our sin our debt?
    Yes you know what it is..
    the wages of sin is death..simple Jesus paid for it by his blood and now we are able to live again as all since Adam have been dead from sin.
    So what is really your question if you have one?
    God Bless
    Randy
    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holyrokker View Post
    I've often heard people say that "Jesus paid our debt". Did he?

    - What was our debt?
    -To whom did He make payment?
    -If He paid our debt, are we really forgiven?

    Matthew 18:23-27

    Was payment made to the king for this man's debt? No. The king forgave the debt.

    If I owe $10,000 to my credit card company, and my father pays the bill, is my bill forgiven, or paid off?

    If I owe $10,000 to my credit card company, and nobodt pays my bill, but the credit card company says "Don't worry about it. The bill doesn't need to be paid" - Then I'd be forgiven.

    You my friend, are 100% correct. Our sins were forgiven by God. There was a ransom paid to Satan to redeem us, which was Christ's life. He gave His life for ours. But there was no payment made to God. This idea of a payment to God came from a Catholic theologian named Anselm around the year 1100 A.D. Prior to this no one held to this idea.

    For some reason the links are not working, if you cut and paste them into your browser they will work.

    Here is a link to the Satisfaction model form Anselm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atoneme...isfaction_view)

    and Here is a link to the Ransom or Classic view, held by the early church.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(Ransom_view)
    Last edited by Butch5; Nov 17th 2008 at 03:13 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    There was a ransom paid to Satan to redeem us
    I think I just threw up.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    There was a ransom paid to Satan to redeem us, which was Christ's life.
    Where does the Bible say Satan held us for ransom?

    Scripture does say that Jesus paid our "ransom", but since when does it say that Satan was the one being paid?

    It was God who required a "payment" to be settled for our sins, since He is the one who requires the justice. Jesus paid the price for that justice in our place, so He was paying the "ransom" to God, not Satan.

  9. #9
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    Hi ___ , should I call you Butch?
    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    There was a ransom paid to Satan to redeem us, which was Christ's life.
    I cant figure out what Adam and Eve got when they sold humanity to the enemy. Do they still have it? I figure they lost almost everything in the fall.

    I can't see God tricked the devil. I don't think He needs to trick him. Reading the beginning of Job I figure the enemy does nothing without God's permission.

    And just a point that you don't know what all men believed at any point in time to accurately profess "no one held this idea".

    Can I ask you if you also believe Jesus took on the nature of Satan and died in hell. For context and all...

    Peace,

    Joe

    *I think your links need fixing*

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by holyrokker
    I've often heard people say that "Jesus paid our debt". Did he?
    Quote Originally Posted by kahtar
    The end result of sin is death, eternal separation from God.
    In every single case, for every sin of every man woman and child on the planet, death will be required, and death will occur.
    Jesus Christ died that death in our place. He paid the price, which is death.
    Now we are faced with a choice. We can either accept the payment He made for us in our behalf, freely offered to us, or, we can pay that penalty ourselves.
    If we accept what He did in our place, then truly our 'King forgives our debt', because He paid it Himself. It gets paid either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by looking4jesus View Post
    Yes you know what it is..
    the wages of sin is death..simple Jesus paid for it by his blood and now we are able to live again as all since Adam have been dead from sin.
    I agree with the above answers. I will only add why Jesus was able to pay the debt and not some other man.

    First, the debt:

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (to be continued)

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (to be continued)

    Death and then judgment where every man will be found lacking. There is no way past this for man.

    Now Jesus Christ, God Himself, was also made a man but not in the conventional way. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, conceived by the Holy Ghost instead of man. Being a man, Jesus lived a perfect and acceptable life. Jesus ultimately suffered death just like the rest of us. BUT, HOWEVER, Jesus suffered death without owing the wages of sin. Jesus' life was therefore given where no debt was owed. The Apostle Peter offers in his sermon on the day of Pentecost:

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    So by being found as a man without sin Jesus suffered death on our behalf. Having died without the penalty of death upon Him, Jesus became victorious over death and was raised again! Death had no claim on our Lord and Saviour! Paul offers: Instead of posting it, please take a moment and read this whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 straight through.

    Now, getting back to our two verses above, they are completed thusly:

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (to be continued) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    and

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (to be continued)

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrckBrln View Post
    I think I just threw up.
    Hi BrckBrln,

    Just one question, did you read the articles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Where does the Bible say Satan held us for ransom?

    Scripture does say that Jesus paid our "ransom", but since when does it say that Satan was the one being paid?

    It was God who required a "payment" to be settled for our sins, since He is the one who requires the justice. Jesus paid the price for that justice in our place, so He was paying the "ransom" to God, not Satan.

    Hi Markedward,

    Before we get into a discussion of this, please read the articles. Please Google Anselm Of Canterbury. I will gladly discuss this, however you will need to at least have basic idea of what the two doctrine say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    You my friend, are 100% correct. Our sins were forgiven by God. There was a ransom paid to Satan to redeem us, which was Christ's life. He gave His life for ours. But there was no payment made to God. This idea of a payment to God came from a Catholic theologian named Anselm around the year 1100 A.D. Prior to this no one held to this idea.

    Here is a link to the Satisfaction model form Anselm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atoneme...sfaction_view)

    and Here is a link to the Ransom or Classic view, held by the early church.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(Ransom_view)
    I have fixed the links in the above by adding the right parentheses to the link.

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  14. #14
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    Walstib---I cant figure out what Adam and Eve got when they sold humanity to the enemy. Do they still have it? I figure they lost almost everything in the fall.
    They didn't sell humanity, they were basically kidnapped. They were fooled by Satan into disobeying God, thereby committing sin. They chose to obey Satan rather than God, and fell under his control. Hence Jesus telling the Jews, you are of your father the devil.

    Walstib----I can't see God tricked the devil. I don't think He needs to trick him. Reading the beginning of Job I figure the enemy does nothing without God's permission.
    No , God doesn't need to trick him, however because Adam willingly gave himself over to Satan, Satan has power over Adam.

    Walstib----And just a point that you don't know what all men believed at any point in time to accurately profess "no one held this idea".
    Surely you didn't think that I meant every single human being who ever lived before the year 1100 held this positon. I was speaking of the Church, the major writers in the church held this posotion.

    Walstib----Can I ask you if you also believe Jesus took on the nature of Satan and died in hell. For context and all...
    I did not say anyone took on the nature of Satan. I simply said, Adam and Eve fell under the power or authority of Satan. No Jesus did not, he was born of a virgin and had no sin.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    They didn't sell humanity, they were basically kidnapped. They were fooled by Satan into disobeying God, thereby committing sin. They chose to obey Satan rather than God, and fell under his control. Hence Jesus telling the Jews, you are of your father the devil.
    I was just going by the definition in the link you gave. *shrug* I agree with this in principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    No , God doesn't need to trick him, however because Adam willingly gave himself over to Satan, Satan has power over Adam.
    I again agree without nitpicking apart the words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Surely you didn't think that I meant every single human being who ever lived before the year 1100 held this position. I was speaking of the Church, the major writers in the church held this position.
    I guess I am persnickety about words and accept them at face value. That and I don't generally connect the earthly church with the spiritual Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    I did not say anyone took on the nature of Satan. I simply said, Adam and Eve fell under the power or authority of Satan. No Jesus did not, he was born of a virgin and had no sin.
    Well I will say I am glad about this. Many who subscribe to the ransom theory nowadays agree with the teachings of the "Word of faith" movement... as stated in the link you posted. Hence my question for your fuller context. Thanks for clarifying.

    Grace and peace,

    Joe

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