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ThyWordIsTruth
Apr 29th 2010, 05:14 AM
I've always wondered what the book of Rev meant by the sevenfold Spirit of God. Seems Isaiah might have provided the answer.

Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

He is the Spirit of the Lord
He is the Spirit of wisdom
He is the Spirit of understanding
He is the Spirit of counsel
He is the Spirit of might
He is the Spirit of knowledge
He is the Spirit of fear of the Lord

markedward
Apr 29th 2010, 05:33 AM
This doesn't work.


The word "spirit" is only used four times, not seven.
The latter three instances are describing the first. So in reality, Isaiah 11.2 can at best be interpreted as four "spirits" total, or one Spirit with three "spirits" being used to describe it.


Similarly, the translation of "sevenfold Spirit" is intentionally misleading. The Greek specifically says "seven spirits".

This shouldn't be taken as problematic, however. There is a reason John calls the Holy Spirit "the seven spirits which are before the presence of [the Father's] throne". When we read the Revelation, especially chapters 4-5, we see that the throne-room of God is described as if it was a Temple. All of the imagery parallels that of the earthly temple under the Mosaic Covenant. There is the Altar of Incense, the Altar of Burnt Offering, the Sea of Glass (paralleling the Bronze Sea laver), the Throne (paralleling the Ark of the Covenant), the Lamb Slain (paralleling the earthly sin-offerings), four Living Creatures (paralleling the cherubim carved onto the Ark and into the walls of the temple). Lastly, there are the seven spirits of God which "were burning [like] seven torches of fire" (paralleling the seven-branched lampstand). The 24 elders even fall into the temple imagery (they parallel the 24 divisions of the priesthood). The only two things missing from the Mosaic Covenant temple imagery are the Veil separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place (since Christ's sacrifice tore the Veil apart), and the Presence-Bread (since Christ himself is the Bread of Life).

The "seven spirits" are simply a symbolic representation of the (single) Holy Spirit; whereas Jesus Christ is symbolized as a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes, the Holy Spirit is symbolized as the seven-branched lampstand. We have to ask, Why? Well, Jesus is symbolized as a Lamb because he is the sacrifice for man's sins. His seven horns symbolize his perfect power (horns represent power in Scripture). His seven eyes represent his omniscience (he sees all things). So, why is the Holy Spirit the seven-branched lampstand of the temple imagery? Because the lampstand was used in the temple to illuminate the Holy Place; the Holy Spirit is symbolized as "seven spirits" which burn as "seven torches of fire", because he is the one who brings people into the light of God. It is through the Holy Spirit that the truth of God is illuminated to us.

That's all there is to it. No unnecessary leaps into Isaiah 11.2. John isn't saying that there are literally seven different spirits within the Holy Spirit (i.e. he's not expressing belief in a nine-inity, as opposed to the trinity), he's simply describing the (single) Holy Spirit in temple imagery.

Gillian
Apr 29th 2010, 09:22 AM
I've always wondered what the book of Rev meant by the sevenfold Spirit of God. Seems Isaiah might have provided the answer.

Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

He is the Spirit of the Lord
He is the Spirit of wisdom
He is the Spirit of understanding
He is the Spirit of counsel
He is the Spirit of might
He is the Spirit of knowledge
He is the Spirit of fear of the Lord


Rev 1. 4 ...seven spirits before which are before his throne
12 seven golden candlesticks
20 mystery od seven stars.....and seven golden candlesticks. the seven stars are the angels os the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches.

5 seven horns and spirits of Lamb (like Lamb, horns not literally) seven smybol the fullness power of Christ.

seven Spirits in eariler churches passages seven angels etc show power in Christ`s hand these churches are in and judged by Him.

Servant89
May 1st 2010, 04:03 PM
Gillian, Rom 3:4 ... yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Isa 8:20 tells you you are on the right track.

Shalom

ross3421
May 4th 2010, 01:50 AM
I've always wondered what the book of Rev meant by the sevenfold Spirit of God. Seems Isaiah might have provided the answer.

Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

He is the Spirit of the Lord
He is the Spirit of wisdom
He is the Spirit of understanding
He is the Spirit of counsel
He is the Spirit of might
He is the Spirit of knowledge
He is the Spirit of fear of the Lord

I see the Holy Spirit is made up of seven spirits in total. Hence we see the Holy Spirit in bold.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

markedward
May 4th 2010, 02:21 AM
ross3421,

Is Jesus literally a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns? Or is he a lion, born of the tribe of Judah? Or is he a man with bronze skin and a face shining as the sun? We know he isn't literally a lamb, and we know he isn't literally a lion... it's clearly symbolism depicting his roles within God's plan. When he is called the "lamb" we know he is not a literal lamb, it is a symbol of his sacrifice for our sins. When he is called the "lion" we know he is not a literal lion, it is a symbol of his royalty and power.

Since the Holy Spirit is called "the seven spirits" and he is described as burning as "seven torches of fire", do you ignore the rest of the non-literal temple imagery of the Revelation as well? Do you claim that Jesus is literally a lamb? Do you claim that Jesus is literally a lion? No. Then why do you claim that the Holy Spirit is literally seven separate spirits?

Frecs
May 4th 2010, 02:57 AM
We need to be very careful when interpreting scripture to recognize metaphors and symbolism. God has many descriptives in the Bible: Jehovah Jireh, Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah Shalom, etc. but that does not mean that He is a pantheon of gods. He is one God. The names describe His character. As Markedward so rightly points out, Isaiah is describing the Holy Spirit. He gives various descriptors but that does not mean that the Holy Spirit is four or seven spirits.

I'm sure we all agree but just for the sake of clarity: God is One God in Three Persons (Triune) not seven. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

ross3421
May 4th 2010, 03:17 AM
ross3421,

Is Jesus literally a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns? Or is he a lion, born of the tribe of Judah? Or is he a man with bronze skin and a face shining as the sun? We know he isn't literally a lamb, and we know he isn't literally a lion... it's clearly symbolism depicting his roles within God's plan. When he is called the "lamb" we know he is not a literal lamb, it is a symbol of his sacrifice for our sins. When he is called the "lion" we know he is not a literal lion, it is a symbol of his royalty and power.

Since the Holy Spirit is called "the seven spirits" and he is described as burning as "seven torches of fire", do you ignore the rest of the non-literal temple imagery of the Revelation as well? Do you claim that Jesus is literally a lamb? Do you claim that Jesus is literally a lion? No. Then why do you claim that the Holy Spirit is literally seven separate spirits?

Numbers in the verse should be taken literal "seven" is a literal number so would be the number "four". So there are four beasts which are not identified HOWEVER the seven is identified as the seven spirits of God.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

I do not see the problem with the Holy Spirit made up of seven parts Clearly God has seven spirits, right?

markedward
May 4th 2010, 04:39 AM
Please answer my questions:
Is Jesus literally a lamb with literally seven eyes and literally seven horns?
Is Jesus literally a lion literally descended from the tribe of Judah?
Is Jesus literally a man made of metal?

Or are these non-literal symbols?


Numbers in the verse should be taken literalWhere is this rule given in Scripture? The Bible does not say that every number should be taken literally. Many numbers can be literal and not symbolic, many can be both literal and symbolic, and many can be symbolic and not literal.


I do not see the problem with the Holy Spirit made up of seven parts Clearly God has seven spirits, right?No, God does not "clearly" have seven spirits. You're basing this idea on just a few verses which you are reading at their most basic level. In other words, you have not properly studied the matter. You need to use other Scripture to determine what is being claimed in the Revelation when it says that there are "seven spirits" before God's throne. Read this part of my post earlier in the thread:


This shouldn't be taken as problematic, however. There is a reason John calls the Holy Spirit "the seven spirits which are before the presence of [the Father's] throne". When we read the Revelation, especially chapters 4-5, we see that the throne-room of God is described as if it was a Temple. All of the imagery parallels that of the earthly temple under the Mosaic Covenant. There is the Altar of Incense, the Altar of Burnt Offering, the Sea of Glass (paralleling the Bronze Sea laver), the Throne (paralleling the Ark of the Covenant), the Lamb Slain (paralleling the earthly sin-offerings), four Living Creatures (paralleling the cherubim carved onto the Ark and into the walls of the temple). Lastly, there are the seven spirits of God which "were burning [like] seven torches of fire" (paralleling the seven-branched lampstand). The 24 elders even fall into the temple imagery (they parallel the 24 divisions of the priesthood). The only two things missing from the Mosaic Covenant temple imagery are the Veil separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place (since Christ's sacrifice tore the Veil apart), and the Presence-Bread (since Christ himself is the Bread of Life).

The "seven spirits" are simply a symbolic representation of the (single) Holy Spirit; whereas Jesus Christ is symbolized as a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes, the Holy Spirit is symbolized as the seven-branched lampstand. We have to ask, Why? Well, Jesus is symbolized as a Lamb because he is the sacrifice for man's sins. His seven horns symbolize his perfect power (horns represent power in Scripture). His seven eyes represent his omniscience (he sees all things). So, why is the Holy Spirit the seven-branched lampstand of the temple imagery? Because the lampstand was used in the temple to illuminate the Holy Place; the Holy Spirit is symbolized as "seven spirits" which burn as "seven torches of fire", because he is the one who brings people into the light of God. It is through the Holy Spirit that the truth of God is illuminated to us.

... John isn't saying that there are literally seven different spirits within the Holy Spirit (i.e. he's not expressing belief in a nine-inity, as opposed to the trinity), he's simply describing the (single) Holy Spirit in temple imagery.
Jesus is not literally a lamb with literally seven eyes and literally seven horns.
Jesus is not literally a lion literally descended from the tribe of Judah.
Jesus is not literally a man made of metal.
Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not literally seven spirits that burn like torches.

stoomart
May 4th 2010, 05:58 AM
Hello there all,

I also see Isa. 11:2 as an applicable description of the seven-fold nature of the holy spirit. Seven is very often used to depict completeness and I believe these seven elements represent the complete holy spirit, lacking nothing.

Gillian
May 4th 2010, 07:59 AM
Numbers in the verse should be taken literal "seven" is a literal number so would be the number "four". So there are four beasts which are not identified HOWEVER the seven is identified as the seven spirits of God.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

I do not see the problem with the Holy Spirit made up of seven parts Clearly God has seven spirits, right?

yes and no. there only One Holy Spirit (Godhead) you could say seven spirits are like portions of each coming from One Spirit

like One Adam we all come from

One enteral Wisdom we all got our god given consiece, the wisdom in our begins,

Gillian

Frecs
May 4th 2010, 01:05 PM
yes and no. there only One Holy Spirit (Godhead) you could say seven spirits are like portions of each coming from One Spirit

like One Adam we all come from

One enteral Wisdom we all got our god given consiece, the wisdom in our begins,

Gillian

That actually isn't a workable analogy, Gillian. The Holy Spirit is not splitting into divisions or portions or giving birth to offspring. The Holy Spirit is not an "it" as in an object that can be divided. The Holy Spirit is one Person of the Godhead.

Gillian
May 4th 2010, 08:00 PM
That actually isn't a workable analogy, Gillian. The Holy Spirit is not splitting into divisions or portions or giving birth to offspring. The Holy Spirit is not an "it" as in an object that can be divided. The Holy Spirit is one Person of the Godhead.

words just merely words, just be clarify what my meaning of it,

2 kings 2:9

And it came to pass, when they gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

and for it. google bible call Holy Spirit it. i believe (it) bible done few times.

I never simple gonna to be perfect unoffenise words of grammers. assuming people smart enough or knee jerk for not agrument sake or quick to but smart to figure what i mean by.

many thankfully not some, remember to get what i mean rather words alone of expression. expressions can be pently many different ways. not going to express a particlur manner to pleased some. that simple not me most of time, why? i perfer to assumed christians and nor christians alike are smart enough to get it.

I agree with you Holy Spirit is a Person of course.


anyhow ovbious wrong expression in this case for you, but One Holy Spirit wisdom come from(father son holy spirit)
we all have that measures of Him. Or that im sure bible DO have more words in use for many expression of same meaning. part of? is that better? yeah I love to have double portiin of Elijah spirit (Holy Spirit) poritins, measures, gifts etc inculed Paul.

are you born again well, thank to Holy Spirit!! Spirit that Holy to own spirit/soul that should be holy in it creation but renew again cos of Him.

in creation in DNA in moving living conseice that certainly come from God. the Persons

ThyWordIsTruth
May 5th 2010, 01:29 AM
Hi ross,


Numbers in the verse should be taken literal "seven" is a literal number so would be the number "four". So there are four beasts which are not identified HOWEVER the seven is identified as the seven spirits of God.

ok. let's go with that for a moment.



Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

if we take seven to be literal, i.e. there are seven Spirits, then we must also take seven to be literal when it says that the Lamb has seven horns and seven eyes.

Do you really believe that Jesus has seven eyes and seven horns growing out of his head?


Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

I do not see the problem with the Holy Spirit made up of seven parts Clearly God has seven spirits, right?

I don't read it that way. If this verse is clearly written in a symbolic prophetic style, then we have to read the entire verse in symbolic prophetic style. I believe the seven represent the ministries or attributes of one Spirit, just as the eyes and horns represent the attributes of one Christ.

ross3421
May 6th 2010, 02:21 AM
[QUOTE=ThyWordIsTruth;2402301]
if we take seven to be literal, i.e. there are seven Spirits, then we must also take seven to be literal when it says that the Lamb has seven horns and seven eyes.

Do you really believe that Jesus has seven eyes and seven horns growing out of his head?

I do not believe they are growing out of his head but that the seven eyes and horns represent or are symbolic of not just one but of SEVEN things. So the the literal of seven is the number of things not the subject (eyes / horns) of things.

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