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virgilio viclar
Feb 7th 2010, 06:10 AM
Heb. 4: 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow and is discerner of the thougts and intent of the heart.
Thanks in advanced for your quote./virgilio.

markedward
Feb 7th 2010, 06:50 AM
The "word of God" were the Scriptures that the Christians used during the first-century AD, which was what is now called the "Old Testament".

roaring tiger
Feb 7th 2010, 09:02 AM
Hi!!!virgilio,

So, the old testament which was composed of 39 books is now binded in to 43 words or one verse of NT Heb.4: 12.

maybe it was John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one to acuseth you, even Moses in whom you trust.

hhhhhmmmm I'm still negative about this,maybe,maybe hhhmmm Istill thinking of it.

Thanks and God bless./RT

Naphal
Feb 7th 2010, 09:18 AM
Heb. 4: 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow and is discerner of the thougts and intent of the heart.
Thanks in advanced for your quote./virgilio.

Its not a single specific "word" that is being spoken of but all of the inspired writings of God. That is called the "word" of God. Just think of the "word" as the bible.

crossnote
Feb 7th 2010, 09:20 AM
Context, context, context.
v.7 His voice
v.8 For if Jesus had given them rest...
v.10 For he that is entered into his rest
v.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:
v.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest,
etc. etc. Oh, and then one more for good measure...

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

roaring tiger
Feb 7th 2010, 09:38 AM
Its not a single specific "word" that is being spoken of but all of the inspired writings of God. That is called the "word" of God. Just think of the "word" as the bible.

Hi!!!Naphal,

How are you?

I was greatly astounded by your quote,Markedward said it was Ot which compose of 39 books and according to you it is the bible, so a single verse with 43 words are binded to thousand of verses???

Please help me understand this,

Thanks and God bless./RT.

roaring tiger
Feb 7th 2010, 09:44 AM
Context, context, context.
v.7 His voice
v.8 For if Jesus had given them rest...
v.10 For he that is entered into his rest
v.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:
v.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest,
etc. etc. Oh, and then one more for good measure...

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

Hi!!!Crossnote,

How are you?

Your quote, I think this is what I'm looking for because of my avatar. I,m here on the door knocking, if any one hear my voice I shall enter in him and sup with him.

Thanks a lot and God bless./RT.

Naphal
Feb 7th 2010, 09:48 AM
Hi!!!Naphal,

How are you?

I was greatly astounded by your quote,Markedward said it was Ot which compose of 39 books and according to you it is the bible, so a single verse with 43 words are binded to thousand of verses???

Please help me understand this,

Thanks and God bless./RT.

Hi, I dont understand what you are saying/asking. The word of God is all of true scripture. It is not limited to only the OT, even when a verse had been before the NT was officially known. God knew what was to be the word of God.

roaring tiger
Feb 7th 2010, 09:59 AM
Hi, I dont understand what you are saying/asking. The word of God is all of true scripture. It is not limited to only the OT, even when a verse had been before the NT was officially known. God knew what was to be the word of God.

Hi!!!Naphal,

I am not the one asking this, I only quote it was virgilio who was the original OP, I was still learning/studying this topic.

Thanks for your quote,/RT.

Servant89
Feb 7th 2010, 04:56 PM
To me, the Word is the Bible, the whole Bible. The NT is also inspired and considered the Word of God.

1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Thess 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Shalom

Naphal
Feb 7th 2010, 05:01 PM
Agreed.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Here we see in the future, in the eternity that the word of God is mentioned and certainly that would include NT as well as the OT.




To me, the Word is the Bible, the whole Bible. The NT is also inspired and considered the Word of God.

1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Thess 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Shalom

BroRog
Feb 7th 2010, 06:02 PM
Heb. 4: 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow and is discerner of the thougts and intent of the heart.
Thanks in advanced for your quote./virgilio.Although we typically refer to our Bibles as "the word of God", which it is, I don't think the author of Hebrews was talking about the entire Bible when he said "the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword . . . etc." In the context, the phrase "the word of God" refers to "a promise of entering His rest" (4:1) "the good news preached to us" (4:2) The good news preached to them" (4:6) It is God's promise of rest specifically, not the entire Bible in general, that is able to reveal the thoughts and the hearts of men.

Beckrl
Feb 7th 2010, 07:03 PM
Heb. 4: 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow and is discerner of the thougts and intent of the heart.
Thanks in advanced for your quote./virgilio.

The book of Hebrews is a very interesting book in which shows Jesus.
Many Jewish believers , having stepped out of Judaism in to Chirstianity , want to return to escape persecution. The writer exhorts them to "go unto perfection" (6:1)
He shows that Christ is better and superiority than,the Judaic system, than angels, Moses,Aaronic priesthood, and better that the Law.

So here in the vesre you bring up is a symbolic language to show a image of the "word of God" that it is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword....
The writer is challenging them to continue in their persecution and to enter his rest.
What the writer compares is in this "Let us Labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelieve"

Therefore God knows your hearts and thoughts and intents. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight... therefore we have a great high priest...

virgilio viclar
Feb 8th 2010, 06:44 AM
To me, the Word is the Bible, the whole Bible. The NT is also inspired and considered the Word of God.

1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Thess 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Shalom

Hi,Servant89 & Naphal,
Thanks for your quote but it leave me a little disturb, thinking and considering your quote and with Naphal on how could i apply this to some verses. I'll give you an example;If the word in Heb. 4: 12 is the bible, How could
we explain John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us;How could it be since the bible were only written in first century or after christ ascension to heaven?
In Rev.19: 13 He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.so, we can also read it like this" The Bible of God."
I'm trying to considered your opinion but I hardly cannot understand it. Bible is my favorite book and rather than this I dont read any book.
I'm looking for what Jesus told in John 6: 63 all the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life.
By the way thanks again and I'm looking further for your share.Thanks virgilio.

markedward
Feb 8th 2010, 06:53 AM
The "word of God" is not the same thing as the "Word of God". You have to take them according to their context.

The "word of God" spoken of in Hebrews 4.12 is clearly an item, not a person. This refers to the Scriptures.

The "Word of God" spoken of in John and Revelation is clearly a person, not an item. This refers to Christ.

virgilio viclar
Feb 8th 2010, 06:58 AM
The book of Hebrews is a very interesting book in which shows Jesus.
Many Jewish believers , having stepped out of Judaism in to Chirstianity , want to return to escape persecution. The writer exhorts them to "go unto perfection" (6:1)
He shows that Christ is better and superiority than,the Judaic system, than angels, Moses,Aaronic priesthood, and better that the Law.

So here in the vesre you bring up is a symbolic language to show a image of the "word of God" that it is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword....
The writer is challenging them to continue in their persecution and to enter his rest.
What the writer compares is in this "Let us Labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelieve"

Therefore God knows your hearts and thoughts and intents. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight... therefore we have a great high priest...

Hi,Beckrl,
I was greatly astonished by your quote because it was very strange for me.I cannot understand what you meant that the word that I,m looking for in Heb. 4: 12 is just a symbolic to show image of the word of God.
May I hereby ask for a little consideration for additional explanation.
Thanks./virgilio.

virgilio viclar
Feb 8th 2010, 07:13 AM
Although we typically refer to our Bibles as "the word of God", which it is, I don't think the author of Hebrews was talking about the entire Bible when he said "the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword . . . etc." In the context, the phrase "the word of God" refers to "a promise of entering His rest" (4:1) "the good news preached to us" (4:2) The good news preached to them" (4:6) It is God's promise of rest specifically, not the entire Bible in general, that is able to reveal the thoughts and the hearts of men.

Hi,BroRog,
Thanks for your quote,I think yours are more sensible it refers to promise of entering His rest,the good news preached to us and to them,It is a promise of rest spesifically.That bring me to the promise made by God
to Abraham to you and to your seed which is the Word of God our Lord Jesus Christ.This brimg me some enlightment of the facts.
Thanks,/virgilio.

roaring tiger
Feb 8th 2010, 11:44 AM
The "word of God" is not the same thing as the "Word of God". You have to take them according to their context.

The "word of God" spoken of in Hebrews 4.12 is clearly an item, not a person. This refers to the Scriptures.

The "Word of God" spoken of in John and Revelation is clearly a person, not an item. This refers to Christ.

Hi!!!markedward,

How are you?

I've read your and it was not address to any one so, may I have the chance to clarify what you had said.

The 'word of God spoken in Hebrew 4:12 is clearly an item - refers to Scripture.The Word of God in John and Revelation is clearly a person, not an item - This refer to Christ.

So,it means that we have two kinds of Word of God, the first was an item,the scripture and the second is a person, this refer to Christ.

Let us clarify the first one in Heb. 4:12 The word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedges sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is discerner

of the thoughts and intent of the heart.I agree that the scripture was written not by private interpretation, but by holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.However, if we shall reconsider what our

Lord Jesus said in John 6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I spake unto you they are spirit and they are life.

The scripture has no spirit,has no sharper twoedges to pierce and divide soul and spirit, joinnts and marrow and cannot discern the thoughts and intent of heart of a man.So, how could it be an item or refer to scripture as

the word of God.

About the second" word of God" - a person or Christ. Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev,1: 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

2 Thess. 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with his brigthness of his coming.so, the spirit of his mouth, the word is the twoedges sword.

so, I deeply concetrate in hearing of the voice of our Lord as it is written; This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.

Thanks and God bless./RT.

crossnote
Feb 8th 2010, 08:19 PM
I will let someone else give supporting Scriptures where the written Word is a discerner of thoughts and hearts. Here is some that shows God is a discerner of thoughts and hearts.
..with whom we have to deal

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
(1Ch 28:9)

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
(Luk 2:35)

But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
(Luk 5:22)

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
(Jer 17:10)

Beckrl
Feb 8th 2010, 11:20 PM
Hi,Beckrl,
I was greatly astonished by your quote because it was very strange for me.I cannot understand what you meant that the word that I,m looking for in Heb. 4: 12 is just a symbolic to show image of the word of God.
May I hereby ask for a little consideration for additional explanation.
Thanks./virgilio.

No problem, the language used to decribe what the writer wants to get across to those that are thinking of turning back to Judaism, here he uses a image of a sword that is quick [living] and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, that it cuts down to the heart and soul and spirit and knows the thoughts of that man. This image is of the word of God which the writer is comparing to the Law of the Judaic System. That they was thinking about returng unto, as in the days in the wilderness.

Here the piviotal point "

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What is that same example of unbelief? It what he told them about the danger of hardening the heart.


7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

virgilio viclar
Feb 9th 2010, 09:22 PM
I will let someone else give supporting Scriptures where the written Word is a discerner of thoughts and hearts. Here is some that shows God is a discerner of thoughts and hearts.
..with whom we have to deal

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
(1Ch 28:9)

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
(Luk 2:35)

But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
(Luk 5:22)

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
(Jer 17:10)

Hi,Crossnote,
I think that this verse can support,1 Cor, 2:11For what man Knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God.
Thanks./virgilio

virgilio viclar
Feb 9th 2010, 09:50 PM
No problem, the language used to decribe what the writer wants to get across to those that are thinking of turning back to Judaism, here he uses a image of a sword that is quick [living] and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, that it cuts down to the heart and soul and spirit and knows the thoughts of that man. This image is of the word of God which the writer is comparing to the Law of the Judaic System. That they was thinking about returng unto, as in the days in the wilderness.

Here the piviotal point "


What is that same example of unbelief? It what he told them about the danger of hardening the heart.

Hi!!Beckrl,
Thank you very much for your quote and I do welcome your opinion,yet I think this does not refer for unbelief because our topic here is word of God.
Heb. 3: 7 Wherefore as he Holy Ghost saith,To day if ye will hear his voice,
v.8] Harden not your heart as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness.
As for my understanding of this verse, the Holy Ghost speak of a certain word that envelope in his voice.
Rom. 10: 8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is the word of faith, which we preach.
1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of inccorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
v, 24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth and the flower thereof falleth away:
v. 25 ] But the word of the Lord endureth forever, and this is the word which by the gospel is preach unto you.
Thanks,/virgilio.

crossnote
Feb 9th 2010, 09:52 PM
Hi,Crossnote,
I think that this verse can support,1 Cor, 2:11For what man Knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God.
Thanks./virgilio

Virgilio,
Yes your reference supports the idea that Heb. 4:12 refers to God and not the written Word per se. I am still waiting on someone to show scriptures where the written Word is a discerner of thoughts and hearts.

Beckrl
Feb 10th 2010, 01:33 AM
Hi!!Beckrl,
Thank you very much for your quote and I do welcome your opinion,yet I think this does not refer for unbelief because our topic here is word of God.

Heb. 3: 7 Wherefore as he Holy Ghost saith,To day if ye will hear his voice,
v.8] Harden not your heart as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness.
As for my understanding of this verse, the Holy Ghost speak of a certain word that envelope in his voice.

Rom. 10: 8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is the word of faith, which we preach.
1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed , but of inccorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
v, 24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth and the flower thereof falleth away:
v. 25 ] But the word of the Lord endureth forever, and this is the word which by the gospel is preach unto you.
Thanks,/virgilio.



Would the writer of Hebrews be making any reference to Jesus as the Word of God ? Which can be seen in a symbolic way as judgment.


And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God (Rev. 19:15)

That sounds simular doesn't?


For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

Both those that were unbelievers in the wilderness, those that wanted to turn back would be judged and would not enter his rest[ the promise land] for they would die in the disbelief in the wilderness. The writer is telling these Jews that don't fall after the same example of unbelief (11) but the perservere therefore to enter into that rest.
What rest is the writer is refering to? It not Israel but the promise land in heaven.


Now if that should be seen as the Holy Spirit how does verse 13 apply?

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Therefore Jesus[word of God] sees and knows our infirmites. Again the whole book of Hebrews is pointing to Jesus the Christ.

roaring tiger
Feb 10th 2010, 02:01 AM
Virgilio,
Yes your reference supports the idea that Heb. 4:12 refers to God and not the written Word per se. I am still waiting on someone to show scriptures where the written Word is a discerner of thoughts and hearts.

Hi!!!Crossnote,

How are you?

I see your post is open to someone who can show scripture about written word,so I decide to participate.

Ps.7: 9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end: but establish the just; for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Rev. 2: 23 I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and will give every one according to your works.

1 Cor. 14: 25 And thus the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

John 12: 48 He that reject me and receive not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Hope this help,Thanks and God bless./RT

Beckrl
Feb 10th 2010, 02:39 AM
John 12: 48 He that reject me and receive not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



I perticular like this verse, I think that shows it very well.

crossnote
Feb 10th 2010, 08:46 PM
Hi!!!Crossnote,

How are you?

I see your post is open to someone who can show scripture about written word,so I decide to participate.

Ps.7: 9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end: but establish the just; for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Rev. 2: 23 I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and will give every one according to your works.

1 Cor. 14: 25 And thus the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

John 12: 48 He that reject me and receive not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Hope this help,Thanks and God bless./RT

Hi RT,
I fail to see where your scripture references 'shows scriptures where the written Word is a discerner of thoughts and hearts.'.

virgilio viclar
Feb 11th 2010, 02:42 AM
Hi RT,
I fail to see where your scripture references 'shows scriptures where the written Word is a discerner of thoughts and hearts.'.

Hi. Crossnote,
I'm sorry all my inquirries and my search are also in vain.I can't find any single verse to show written word is a discerner of thoughts nd intent of hearts.
may you please give me one.
Thanks./virgilio.

roaring tiger
Feb 13th 2010, 09:34 AM
Hi!!!Crossnote,

How are you?

I dedicate this past few days in searching thoroughly if where I can find the scripture you are asking that shall show the written word "discerner of thoughts , but, I do failed also.

I then now, submit it to God and answer me this way;The word is in thy mouth and in thy heart,the word that I preach you.How?

And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us, so, neither is there any creature that is manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

He that rejected me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Thanks and God bless./RT.

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